Welcome everyone to our discussion around independent by design. We are really excited about this. I'm going to set the stage in just a moment for the discussion we're going to be having, as well as we'll do quick introductions.
All right.
I feel very lucky to have Dave and Ursula joining me in this conversation today. Both of these folks are incredibly knowledgeable and experienced in this area and also extremely strategic thinkers around all things extended workforce, but particularly on this topic. So I'm really excited to have them by way of very quick introduction.
I'm Karen Sawyer. I am the Chief Revenue Officer at MBO Partners. I spent the last twenty plus years in the contingent workforce world of some kind, many years in VMS, a few in MSP, most recently about eight years or so, specifically focused on independent contractor compliance and professional payrolling. So not an industry I think any of us grow up thinking we're going go into. We all fall into it, but I'm so incredibly grateful that I have. It's something I've truly fallen in love with. So with that, Dave, I'll pass it to you.
Okay. Thanks, Karen. Hi, I'm Dave Kassar. I'm the Chief Operating Officer of MBO.
I've been here a while. I've held a couple different roles and basically go wherever the company needs me. But that has given me good insight into different aspects of this whole space of independence. And hopefully I can bring some of that experience and knowledge to this conversation.
I've been here a while, fifteen years longer than the State of Independence report. So I've seen the whole gamut and hopefully I can bring some of that to this conversation as well. I actually started in human capital consulting space a long time ago, longer than I choose to share. But I came to NBO after I realized there was a slight shift in the workforce.
It used to be twenty years ago that a consultant was someone who couldn't keep a job. They were working as a consultant in between a full time job. So you kind of kept your distance. And I saw a shift in that and it became these are individuals who actually have a tremendous business network.
They have critical skills that are needed within industry and they're able to take on projects that they think are interesting and important and turn away work they're not interested in doing. And that's when I found MBO and said, this is a place I want to be. And like you're in, who would have thought we would end up here, but we're happy to be here and happy to share whatever knowledge we have with you today. So thanks for inviting me.
Ursula?
Yeah, Dave, I really love that story. So first of all, hi everyone, Ursula Williams, President of SIA, Staffing Industry Analyst. This is not my voice.
We are on the tail end of all of our road shows and conference shows and traveling, a lot of talking and this is what happens. But I am really passionate about the topics that we're talking about today.
My entire career has been in the staffing or workforce solutions ecosystem.
And I've always been really passionate about the ways people work and the ways work get done.
People's careers and work is so important to them, Their financial security, their identity, passion sometimes. There are so many things that are tied up in in work for people and for organizations. You know, they need to meet their strategic objectives and what they have set forth. But really, what is it?
It's those people in those organizations that also are trying to achieve whatever those objectives are for the company. So it's just fascinating for me. And I'm particularly excited about today because as you guys know, I think that just people being able to work in an independent way opens up so many options for companies hiring managers and individuals alike. And I think going into AI in particular and some of the work that's going to be created, I really think it's going to be skills based often.
It's not going to be a job. So I think that's even just more exciting to have people who want to do that and companies that want to acquire talent that way.
Yeah, ten years I've been here, I think every job I've had in staffing workforce solutions, the two of you, have been like, I really love this. I want to keep doing it.
And this is such a natural place for me to be and to lead because we really are in the heart of everything that's happening. So thanks again for today.
Yeah, and I think you've set the stage really, really well here.
This is the fifteenth year of the State of Independence Report. For anyone who's joining us who isn't familiar with that, it's a deep dive, an annual report that we released with some deep dive analytics around the independent workforce and how it's changing and evolving primarily from the independent workers experience inside of that equation.
Because we've been doing that for fifteen years, we have kind of this nice long view into how independent work has grown and matured and shifted over time, kind of to Dave's point a minute ago. So our plan today is to kind of talk, start to unpack why is it shifting and why is that shift accelerating right now?
Kind of what we're seeing and how, as a result, companies are starting to really think differently about their total workforce kind of strategies going forward.
That's kind of setting the stage for today. We do want to start with a quick polling question. How is your organization currently engaging independent talent? Is it structured, mature, ready to go engagement? You're using independence, but maybe not real consistently. You only do it when you have no other option.
You want to, but you just don't have the systems, processes, policies in place, or you just don't use independent talent at all or engage with them.
So not surprising in terms of we always see a gamut, right? There's kind of a pretty significant disparity between where people are. I love seeing this actually. Feel like we've got a pretty advanced, I guess, overall audience here in terms of at least the number we've got that are truly strategic and structured in nature already. So that's, again, a shift we're kind of seeing because this is the way that things are shifting overall.
Yeah. And I think even for those people to be attracted to a webinar like this, where we're talking about what that talent is interested in and what drives them and how to attract them, I think that says a lot. You understand, you put a structured engagement program in place that's strategic for your business, and you still want to learn more about this population because you're seeing how important they are to your success.
Yeah, you know, I'm also encouraged by, I was looking at what the other responses are, but I'm encouraged by the number one response.
Our workforce solutions buyer survey comes in at about eighty three percent of the global enterprises have an MSP, and I think it's like sixty one or sixty two that have an MSP, and there has been so much improvement in the integrations in those two areas with platforms that can deliver this talent, and it has made the adoption better. I think if we would have asked this question even just a few years ago, it would have been vastly different. Having said that, we researched on this, there's still so much room for improvement in that area, which this is not a shameless plug for what you guys have done and where you're going. But I definitely think it'll continue to make it easier, right, to integrate it. Think when there's friction, like several years ago, there was just a lot of friction. People wanted to hire workers that were independent. So it was really difficult to bring them into their programs.
Yeah.
So you really touched on it both then and I think kind of in your intro, but anything else from yours or SIA's perspective around kind of why this acceleration right now? Is there anything else kind of from what you're seeing as to kind of why this is happening?
Yeah, well, I think there are a number of things that we look at and we cover.
The pandemic, it's five years ago, and I think there's people that are like, why are we all still talking about it? But it really did change a lot. Think about how, what you all do, and how you might go through life, purchase things, approach things.
User behaviors changed.
People's preferences changed, people learned they wanted to do things differently. It's not like before the pandemic, independent contracting wasn't growing. In twenty nineteen, it was growing.
And so I think it probably fast forwarded it a bit. I think that people realized, can do this.
Think you have a stat on, maybe it's in the state of the defense report on just security.
People want to control their own destiny. And in the last five years, it's been volatile. Is the company a layoff? Are they not going to lay off? What's going to happen? And so people that are controlling what they want to do and how they want to do it, where they want to do it, I think we're going to see more and more of that. There's also this misnomer that there is all this talent available.
When you talk to people that are hiring, they're still having a really hard time finding the skilled talent they need. So I think that's also a factor of something that is changing, and it's more accessible. There's more ways and more options if you're an IC that you can engage in that kind of work. What we just talked about, right?
If there's more integration and absorption on the VMS MSPs, that makes it easier on the enterprise and on the right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Dave, let me shift to you for a minute. I mean, there's so much going on in the news and the media right now around the job market and hiring and all of that. I guess, how do you feel like impacts the independent marketplace overall?
Well, yeah, there is a lot in the news. And if we think about what we're hearing, we know that the staffing industry has had a kind of rough three years. I mean, in 2025, it's still probably single digit contraction of the market.
And yet SIA is predicting 2026to be a rebuild, a growth year, and we're all positive about that. But I don't think their predictions are parade worthy.
You know, they're just kind of slightly Zero is new growth, Dave.
Zero new growth. Okay. We're not going to have a break for that.
It's modest, modest growth is what we're looking at. Modest. Yeah.
All right. Yeah, we do know that US companies, similar to what Ursula was saying are increasing their use of contractors and they're looking to find ways to find that critical talent that they need to be competitive in the markets they serve. And they're focused on finding a way to engage that talent faster and more efficiently.
So we know the demand is there. Another thing that's really interesting is on this slide actually in the upper left hand corner is the US Census Bureau has been recording every year these applications for new businesses.
And ever since the pandemic, again, we're talking about 2020, the amount of applications for non high propensity businesses, So that means businesses that they are not anticipating to hire a lot of employees. So these would be applications for businesses that they anticipate to have one worker or maybe two person partnership.
Those applications have doubled consistently every year for the last five years. So people are moving to this to begin and operate as a business.
So the supply, you have the demand from the enterprises and you have the supply happening. And then you have the breakdown of geographic barriers, you now can go, I mean, technology has enabled us to bring the worker close to the work.
So we can now go and access talent anywhere in the world to work with us. So I think geographic boundaries, you don't have to say, Can you drive to my office every day? You can say, can you be available in my time zone? Now we have time zone geography or boundaries. And it's not if you have to work with someone during the course of your workday, that can be a pretty widespread geographic area that you're covering from a time zone perspective. So you can become competitive about what talent you choose, how much you're paying for that talent, and it really opens up a supply of talent that didn't exist prior.
So that's what I see happening out there and Ursula, you're dealing with this every day and you're talking to the workforce strategy leaders, you probably have a very unique perspective on how this supply and demand impacts them.
Well, Dave, I love that you hit on the geographical aspect of it because I also believe that gives people confidence to say, look, this is how I want to work. And I don't have to worry about just finding work within my ability to commute.
Can go and I can do this work. And I know later we're going to talk about the salary level or the level of individual we're looking at. These are highly expertise skilled professionals in your ecosystem.
And it's incredible. I think also the people I talk to, they're working independent and a lot of them are in technology, I'm in the Bay Area.
They travel in packs.
Yeah. So, right, that it's, yeah, and I think you've got some slides on that, but they know where the cool projects are, And they're going to work on those cool projects. They're, so I think when people hear the word independent, they're like, oh, it's this one Z2, this one person here and this one person here. They're going in as teams and they know what they're doing and they're bringing other people in and they're doing really cool work.
So yeah, I just think that the boundaries that we used to have to deal with, whether you're on the hiring side or the talent side, have been lowered substantially.
Oh, and now I'm looking at the demographic shifts. That's a whole another topic, right?
That's right.
Yeah, and I think you're right. It is like it's happening in droves to some extent.
And one of the things that the statistic I've now heard it and said it a million times, but I'm still blown away that there are just in the US, there are seventy three million independent contractors, which is, I don't know, it's still mind blowing to me when you think about the size of the US holistically, that's a pretty nice chunk. And to your point, Dave, I think it's a third of those are working globally. So anyway, really interesting, and even being in this business full time, I'm still surprised sometimes by just the number and the acceleration in this area.
All right.
Let's see. Oh, okay. So you guys may have some additional context on this, but again, some of the really interesting, I think, data and statistics that came out of the report, this has been trending in this direction by the way over the years, but this year in particular was really interesting. So eighty six percent of independent workers are saying that their satisfaction is high, which I don't know about you, but I don't know how often I see an eighty six percent satisfaction rate, not any company or big company that I've worked closely with.
So that's pretty interesting that they think it's better for their health and they feel better working independently. I think historically, I would think about independent work to some degree as, gosh, isn't there nervousness around? Are you going to find your next gig? Are you going to have enough projects to be able to live the lifestyle you want to live and that sort of thing?
And it sort of shifted from what we saw in the responses to our data to the opposite of that, where balancing your investment portfolio, it's a way to diversify and ensure you do have enough and that you've got the longevity and you're not fully dependent on the one full time gig. So I think just as a mental shift, that's a pretty big one over the pretty short term here, which is interesting.
Yeah, I'd agree.
A couple more points on that topic is that those are from the worker perspective. Who wouldn't want to be happier, healthier and more secure in their job? I mean, that's amazing. But from an enterprise perspective, understanding this is where this talent is at is important. So what should the company learn from this or the client of these services learn about this is that if they want, you know, creative, exciting projects, give them creative, exciting projects, work that into your workforce strategy, make that part of your objective. If you want to access this talent, meet them where they are, know your audience, right?
I think companies who succeed at leveraging this pool of talent really let them work not as a temp employee, but as a valued partner in in achieving the business goals of your enterprise. And that's where we see when clients realize that, and that clicks and they create a program that enables that type of relationship to occur, that's when they can really capitalize on this asset.
You just brought me back so many years. I love what you just said. There was a time people were not FTEs of a company because they were struggling to find a job.
So they'd go and they'd work on a temporary basis or project basis as a way to maybe find it. I mean, there certainly probably was a group that it was nice for their flexible school teachers, maybe one in summer work or that type of thing. But often they wanted a permanent job.
And that has shifted so much.
People don't want that permanent. These people do not want that permanent job. And I think earlier you were saying meeting these candidates where they are. I think that's the other really key point.
There's just different people and they have different ways in which they want that relationship with work. Is that what we were talking about? And for years we've been talking about skills based, Is it really a job or is it a skill? Are you hiring?
Do you need a person to come in and build your set of GPTs or whatever it's going to be, and do you want to hire that person? Or you just need, is that just project based? Come in, get it done, get the most skilled person you possibly can.
You now don't have salary boundaries because maybe that person, if they were coming in full time, would be way outside of your realm of what you pay an FTE, right? Absolutely. But you can pay more on the hourly rate because it's a short duration, and you're going to get it done right and you get out. So the opportunity that that gives organizations to get that work done and de decoupling it with having to hire a full time equivalent is really transformational when you think about and yeah, the fact that they're also happy, they're motivated, they want to do great work.
Sixty seven percent feel more secure working this way. I mean, that's really a great stat. And it speaks a lot to this particular type of individual.
Yeah, and the more companies actually realize this and adopt programs that attract that type of talent there, it creates this, an opportunity for that talent to really succeed.
And so this is a really powerful slide and a trend that just says nonstop. Since we started this study, there's five point six million independents who are operating and earning over one hundred thousand dollars a year in 2025.
Five point six million people is, you know, two percent of the US population or close to it. And that's the whole population, not the working population, it's probably close to five percent of the working population of the United States. And five percent of that population is earning over one hundred thousand dollars a year, happier, healthier, and more secure. They talk. This is attracting people. And this is what's happened.
Twenty percent growth over last year, over fifty percent growth since the beginning of the survey. So pretty, pretty telling sign that the workforce is changing. And this is a component of that change.
Yeah, absolutely.
Karen, you and Ursula talk to these leaders all the time. You experience this.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think something you said triggered me too, to think, you know, in addition to kind of just the way this is changing and has been, we've got this additional accelerator right now, which is the word that is said every five minutes right now, which is AI.
So now you've got to, I think another of the big components that's contributing to this, in addition to all the things we've talked around why people want to work this way is the technology component. So you mentioned this earlier, Dave, but one, it's gotten easier to connect work and worker in all kinds of ways because technology has allowed that.
We've also now got technology on the rise all over the place. So you've also got this highly skilled group. And I think companies are benefiting from a worker having experience and access across multiple projects and companies and those sorts of things, they get to bring all that knowledge to whatever project they're working on for your company.
That has massively changed, I think, the skill set and the speed at which skills are changing and evolving and improving. So now the workers you're getting, you've got folks who are getting all this exposure, particularly in the AI world, because that is evolving so quickly. We're all trying to figure it out. And now you've got a contractor who's working three different gigs, getting experience in three different places, learning different ways and techniques across those, and now bringing that maybe to the project they're working on for their next engagement.
So I think that is also bringing this acceleration just in knowledge and skill and the speed at which these folks are having an impact on the projects they're coming to.
I'd love to hear from you two on any other thoughts on how AI is playing a role or how this technology piece is maybe impacting what you're seeing? Ursula, you in particular, you've got the broad scope here from an SAI perspective.
So we just got back from London where we had Executive Forum Europe, and our head of global research had a slide up, and it was from the World Economic Forum, And it addressed how jobs are going to be changing, right?
Because there's so much out there about there's not going to be jobs because AI is just going to do all the work by itself. And I love the slide from the World Economic Forum that I wrote it actually for this. New jobs, one hundred and seventy million.
This is 2025 to two thousand thirty.
Jobs displaced ninety two million.
But there's still an excess of seventy eight million.
So there is so much work that has to happen. And people that are up on their skills and able to grow and to know what is currently needed, especially in AI.
Those are the workers that are going to be needed for these projects.
When I look at this and I look at earlier, you have the one hundred thousand mark, and now we look at the trends, we look at the growth. On the chart, you did see, you have the chart of the growth for the years. You saw even, I think it was 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, you can see like it was modest growth there too.
So sometimes people say that's a different thing. That definitely is representative of what everyone is seeing, in terms of doesn't matter what type of work.
Really that red arrow you look at that, that you look and go, look at the compounded annual growth rate and what's going on.
And so, then what we talked about the accessibility, whether it's on the tech platform or the tech's going through an MSP or a VMS to allow those enterprises to get it. But I'll tell you as great as I think it is, I think we've got a long way to go.
I think that the adoption overall has a lot of opportunity.
When we work with our enterprise customers, they are dealing with a lot. They have a lot of challenges. They need help in a lot of ways because the demand Think about it. They're in the middle, right?
They've got all their hiring managers at their organizations. They have all that supply side and the technologies that they're working with. They've got compliance issues when we talk about AI and just all the different compliance rules and regulations depending on the country. What are they responsible for?
Because the worker's actually working in their environment, the fraud, all the different global areas that they have to serve.
So there's a lot that they still really need help with.
The hiring managers within their organizations actually, program adoption, right?
This is program adoption too. Can they run it through? So their compliance and their oversight. And I think that the more we can help and the better we get at all that, I think it's just going to put more spotlight on, it's just another way of accessing talent. Yep. Right?
Yeah, and I think it is, you're absolutely right, because it's one thing to be ready to say, yes, we're excited, we're open to independent workers, but you also have to be ready to, with every one of those workers is a contract, right? And you have to make sure it's compliant and all of those things. So you just have to make sure you've got the right, it is very doable, and there are companies doing a ton of this.
There's just some steps you have to take to make sure you're ready, prepared, you can do it compliantly, and you can do it in an efficient way engaging with those And Karen, I love that you underscored that.
Are companies doing it really well.
And Yeah. You're absolutely right. Like, you know, I mean, look look at your numbers. And so I that's why one of another reason I love this call. I think that the more education, the more thought leadership.
That's why I like the State of Independence Report. I think the more that we can understand the preference of the worker as well anyone who isn't adopting or getting access to talent this way, it really takes away some of the mystery of it, right?
Yeah, yeah. And the more we can just help people get there in relatively easy and efficient way, the better, right? The more work that ultimately gets done for everybody.
So, well, that's good Go ahead.
I noticed there was a question from the audience about, are we noticing an increase in professionals choosing to work through an agency rather than through independent contractors? And I think the lines get a little bit blurred when you talk about, are they still an independent contractor beginning work through an agency, or do they become an employee of that agency and they're working in that capacity? That's not important for this conversation. I think it shows here that forty two percent and only forty two percent are finding their work through platforms. So the others are finding their work other means, maybe through an agency, maybe through their network or just traditional ways of continuing to work for the same clients.
I think we this is a really good question and maybe we should try to incorporate this into our study going forward is where else are they finding the work if it's not from a platform? And we'd be able to answer that more that question more specifically.
But I thought this slide answered And the nuance around all the words, right? There's staffing platforms and talent platforms, and there's talent platforms that help people little like staffing, there's, you know, so the convergence, which we talk about a lot, that is happening, I think also speaks to the evolution of what's going on. Because if you think about it, there really are just access to different types of workers in the way the worker wants to work.
Yeah.
Absolutely
Okay. And I know as suspected, because we all love to talk about all of this, we're probably running tiny bit short on time, but we do, we've got one more quick poll for you, um, before we have a little bit more discussion and wrap it up. But, um, you know, to Ursula's point, this is all great. It's all moving in a great direction, but it's not without its barriers and its challenges. So it would be great to hear from you, which of these things best represents what you consider to be your biggest barrier to scaling this part of the talent component for your organization?
Does it seem like we should have some music or I guess.
Dave will sing for us.
Oh boy Nobody wants that.
Better you than me. We know I swear we can't.
Not today.
Not today. Dave, you're on your own. I'm interested given the, you know, I feel like this is a pretty mature group given their first response to the response in the first poll. So I'm really curious to see how this is going to come out. Okay. Let's see. Yeah.
Talent adoption.
Oh I want to open mic.
I have so many more questions for all of you out there.
No kidding. This is I know.
Pretty in line though, I think, right? Like this is pretty in line with what I would have expected to see.
Yeah.
You know, one thing that's unique here on these answers, are that none of them are talent scarcity.
They're all infrastructure and operating workflow type issues that need to be overcome, which is definitely doable. We know that.
And I think enterprises who can overcome those really can create an attractive environment to become maybe a client of choice.
Yeah.
Yeah, but you know, for twenty nine percent, it was tied with the alignment internally to be about the right skilled workers.
Is even more reason that, one, it ties in with everything we're hearing.
I think earlier before that we went live, was saying that last week, one of the quotes was, the war for talent's over and the talent won.
Are going to decide how they show up and how they work and where they work and what work they take.
And that seems so counterintuitive to a lackluster job market because you tend to feel like people are just going to take any work they can because they need work.
You know but skilled workers were still you know, recruiting is not at an all time low. We do the polls, which measures difficulty in sales and difficulty in recruitment. And while, the sales difficulty in sales has certainly gone up and some of the difficulty in recruitment has come down, it's not like it's flat. Skilled workers are still hard to find.
And therefore, the more avenues you have in your program and to offer your hiring managers, I would think that the better you are. Because I don't think that the workers here are going to be the workers that are going to other places. They're working here for different reasons. So you've just opened your talent pool up quite a bit.
Love to know more about the alignment with some hiring managers. That would be interesting.
Yeah.
I think at the end of the day, an opportunity to design a program that's going to engage the right people.
I want to make sure that we do get to a few questions. I know we've got one more in there. So I think what all of the data is continuing to show, in our discussions with one another across the industry, I think these things become abundantly clear, which is there's this growing abundance of talent, we're looking at the competitive advantage, right? There's a cost reduction component.
I think this shift is going to continue and it's going to continue to mature and evolve. What it looks like today is not what it's going to look like in two years. I constantly think about that even with our kids or whatever. It's so different now from when we were thinking about joining the workforce.
I've got a couple who are five, seven years away from entering the workforce. And man, it's going to be a whole another ball game, I think, but I think it's going to continue to move in this direction.
Hopefully we'll move to some questions. I really appreciate all of you spending the time, even your insights to the poll. Agree with Ursula. I wish we could open this up and have a whole bunch of discussion, but I hope that some of this dialogue and especially some of those kind of data tidbits that kind of back up what we've all been kind of thinking and talking about over the past few years have been helpful to you as you sort of think about your strategy. We are obviously very talkative and would love to continue the dialogue beyond this discussion today.
We did have another question come through that I'll hit on real quick with our last couple of minutes and then see if there's any more, if that works.
Um, It was, where do you think most enterprises still underestimate this shift in talent strategy, policy, or the culture around how work gets done?
Yeah. That's a really good question.
And, um, the the person who asked is going to be disciplined because I it's probably all of the above. Um, I I think it depends. Right? Companies that can build a muscle on actually hiring different forms of work and these ICs clearly because look at the trend and what we're seeing and how many people are offering work this way, will have a strategic competitive advantage.
And it is not just about being informed that this is available. They're really informed. They're very educated people. They're very smart about how work, the worker types and what they have access to.
Just think it's in the rest of their organization.
So I would say it was all of the above, but get that muscle built and get people thinking about the work that has to be done and not just the jobs, which again, I think there has been over the years tremendous headway on that, but not everywhere.
We tend to talk to the most progressive organizations out And so we have to not get blinders on, we have to remember that not everyone's in the same spot.
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. And we do have one more that I think we've got a moment for.
Said earlier in the presentation, there was trends on ICs climbing. Does this trend also respond to the aging of the workforce?
I certainly could take a stab at that, but Dave, you want to go for it?
Go ahead. Go ahead. Go This is a great question because we didn't really have it in the deck, but we have it in the State of Independence report.
The research shows that about over fifty percent of those working in this capacity full time are Gen Z and Millennials. So these are the younger people who are adopting this form of work.
The assumption is that it's because they saw what their parents went through when they dedicated their whole life to one employer, four or five employers, and ended up with kind of a short end of the stick at the end of the day. So the research really shows that younger people want multiple revenue streams. They want to build their own enterprise of one, and they're looking to do it as an independent consultant.
What is interesting too is that is definitely the biggest component, but then you've got the bookend on the other side where we've got some baby boomers who they're retired and maybe even generations below, right? They've hit retirement, but now there's opportunity and optionality, whether it be financial or boredom or anything else where they can now come back in a really flexible way. So I think it's mostly being driven absolutely by those entering the workforce, but then you've got those on the tail end, those who are retiring or retired who are also taking advantage of it, which is really interesting.
All right. Well, if you have not had an opportunity to download the State of Independence Report, please go ahead to our website. There's a QR code here to grab that. You can grab it on the website. There's lots more data and statistics that we weren't able to mention there.
Dave and Ursula, thank you so much. Really appreciate the conversation as always with you. And thank you all for joining.
Thank you. I'm looking forward to combo two, three, four, and five, because we have so much more to unpack.
Absolutely. All right, thanks everyone.
Okay, thank you.
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