Achieving Organizational Success in a Post-COVID-19 Workplace

Bryan Peña: Hello, everybody, and welcome to today's webinar. Achieving organizational success in a post COVID world first COVID workplace. This is an MBO partners virtual event part of our talent insight series. If you're hearing me right now just a couple of housekeeping items. We love your questions. So please don't be shy and we will do our best to answer them in real time. If you have a question, go ahead and click the Q&A little button right there and submit it, and we will do our best to respond in real time. We're also interested in any sort of observations that you can hear us if there are technical issues. Please just use a chat bot, chat button right there as represented on the screen. And we will do our best to respond. At MBO partners. It's our mission to make it easier for enterprise organizations and individuals to work together and we've been doing this more than 20 years. We have a very full events strategy or event calendar ahead of us. We certainly hope you'll come and join us for some of our additional events. We have another event tomorrow with our CEO Miles Everson talking about rebuilding the agile workforce, certainly not when you want to miss and you can see all those upcoming events, and also historical events at the URL listed below MBO partners events. My name is Brian Peña the Chief of Market Strategy at MBO partners. And I am super excited to be joined today by Kenneth Schlechter founder of Kenneth Michael consulting services. Ken is an organizational design expert and I have to tell you, I have really enjoyed our conversations and preparations for this session. And I certainly hope you will as well. Incredibly different perspectives and one that I think is incredibly timely. This is part of our talent insight series. This is our new part of an event that we're doing here at MBO works where we're showcasing some of the talents that are participating, not only in our advantage program, but also who are part of our talent network. This is our opportunity to showcase some of the really high end skills and expertise that is relevant within our system at MBO and how we can help organizations get to the next level within their own company. We're going to have a couple of polls. We certainly hope you'll take a second to respond to them. So I'm just going to post them throughout this time. And share the results as they come in. As always, I just wanna point one final thing, views expressed by the members certainly in this open forum are entitled to their own and don't necessarily represent those of MBO partners. Without further ado Kent I'm going to go ahead and hand the ball over to you. And there you go Kenneth take it away. Ken you’re muted

Kenneth Schlechter: Can you hear me now? 

Bryan Peña: I can hear you now. 

Kenneth Schlechter: OK, great. All I want to thank Brian for the introduction. As well as thank everyone for attending. I know everyone has busy days. So I do appreciate it. And about myself. I have been in the finance zone for a little 33 years during numerous different change management type projects. Anything from fintech projects to organizational changes to compliance management and organizational changes as well. I'm also an adjunct professor at the University of Dayton and NYU where I teach organizational behavior and business ethics courses at both colleges there and their MBO programs. So to kick it off a couple of things that I wanted to start off with is one when I started thinking about what's going on in the world today, both personal and in the business. I thought about it from my perspective, that I'm a big advocate of the work life balance and treating employees and fellow colleagues with respect and dignity. And I really thought about it and was wondering to myself, what are businesses going to take this when we try to get back to the office and was something that appealed to me was when I took a look at how things have evolved over time. Every generation or so we have some changes that really have an evolutionary change in how we do business. The first was the computer, the first time that I started in the workforce. I don't want to date myself, but we have one computer for every two people. And you figured it out. Inhale to get things done. With the advent of the BlackBerry where have you had emails now outside the office the internet where communications could be spread out the iPhone and back to where air travel started. Those all cause monumental shifts in the business world. And here we are with evolutionary change where it's not because of technology advances it's really because of coal. And there's a lot of differences that are because every time you had a technology change everyone saw it as a good thing. And here we are dealing with an issue that is not technological and has fearful people. So what we're going to be discussing today is where companies are right now is just most companies are still what I call the extreme business model. Some if it seems like Ken it seems like you're breaking up you might get it seems like you're breaking up you might want to turn off your camera to save bandwidth. OK I will do that. OK Much better. Very good. Thanks so what I'm going to be discussing today is the need in this new environment to have better engagement, increased communication and accountability as well as making sure that senior management is committed. But more importantly, how can I be successful in this new environment. How do I make my organization all successful. And then lastly, for you managers out there. How do I make sure my steps can succeed because as a manager, you know you have that fiduciary responsibility not to your organization, but to the careers of your employees and your staff. So how do you make them a little bit succeed in this environment. I'm actually really excited to talk about this. Bullet number two, because I think so much of the narrative nowadays it's focused on how the organization has to change and respond to the current environment, as opposed to what it takes to be individually successful. So that is an element that I certainly hope people will have a lot of questions on because I know that there's a lot of uncertainty in the market overall. There are certain links certainly. Thank you, Brian. So before we get into that I would really want to take a look at where we have gone from a technology standpoint. Like I said, when I mentioned before, when I started not everyone had a computer. Finally, when I got my old computer in the workplace. The joke was you got into the office, you booted up your computer, you went to the cafeteria to get breakfast and by the time you got back the computer was booted up. I also had these very large desks and you had to figure out where styles were. You got a lot of different things that you had to deal with. Most importantly, the computers. I always joke that the people who are the younger generation have no undo function in any of the applications. So if you type something wrong you know there was nothing you can do about it. So the point I'm trying to make here is that when you left the office back then you were done with work for the day. There was a very firm boundary about being at work. And then being at home because you couldn't really do work at home because there was no remote working. There were no cell phones or anything like that. The first big thing that I remember is when people got BlackBerry email. Everyone thought it was very cool to have a little thing where you carried it around and everyone was constantly checking their emails. I actually got to a point when I was managing projects I had to ask people to take their blackberries and put them in a little Tupperware that I had by the door because I needed people's undivided attention. But more importantly about the BlackBerry as it was the first time where you started graying the area between work and home because now you have a device that if your boss wanted to contact you. They knew that you had a device that you could receive. And then people started to have to make decisions. Do I answer the email today at 8 o'clock at night. Are they just communicating to me to let me know about something. And the fateful question was, if I decided to answer that email I am now opening myself up to engage in a conversation. So that was really that first point where people didn't really know how to do it. And all of a sudden, your workday started getting expanded and there was a gray area at night as to what you should be doing if we fast forward to the current where we are as we've got laptops we've got iPhones which is basically a portable computer, you have high speed internet and high and high bandwidth and really you can be in touch with everybody and even before COVID the gray areas started to become a little bit more solid because now there was an expectation in some cases, that you are accessible 24 by 7. And the one saving thing that I view it is that if you were going to the office you would at least had the commute home and a place to break that day up and know that at least if I'm going to be engaged and work afterwards at least there was a time that I was either traveling or something that a landmark within your day that told you that part of your day is over the new part of the days is going to start where we are now with the COVID is just as now everyone's working at home. It's that it's that area, whereas when I started work it went away and ended where the expectations of management. If I'm getting all of these emails from people and/or is the expectation for me to be always on and how do you manage that work life balance and everyone has got different family dynamics whether it's small kids older kids no kids significant others around famous people have other interests. And as I was going through this, one of the things that I thought about is what would happen if this code was ahead in the 80s, even the early 90s when there was no technology. I remember as early as this latest 1994, I took a paid paternity leave after my oldest daughter was born. And they asked me to do some work from home and they gave me like 500 pounds of equipment to bring home and it didn't really work all that. Well Yeah. So I find that very interesting about how I do that, I kind of view it as I would think that some people would actually have had to have gone into the office probably with a hazmat suit of some sort. And you know I don't mean to belittle or make fun of the situation. But or and I think more importantly, as I think more companies would have gone out of business quicker. Yeah, I think the fact of the matter is that we would have seen much deeper layoffs. You know a large number of companies truly go out because part and parcel with this is the interconnectivity of Commerce as well, not just about the accessibility of all of us 24/7 to be working wherever we are. But the general ability of business to continue on is enabled by a lot of remote technologies. Like up a worker door or our platform or things like that around the marketplace. So it's an interesting perspective. And I think that was something that I thought was super intriguing was this counterfactual of what if this happened 10 years ago. Yeah, I don't know if my 18-year-old son would have been out the DoorDash like that, you know, he doesn't have to go anywhere and he could still get his fill of food. Yeah type of thing. But I think the point here is that we've gone from a point where there was a definitive break between work and home. And we've gotten to a point where there is no real delineation and that's where we go to talk a little in a little while about how you set boundaries and you make sure that you are taking care of the rest of your life. And your own person during this. And in the future. So really the evolution of the workforce. I really started in the 2000s for this, those you could really go really way back and start talking about graph paper and pencils and things like that. But the way I view it is in the early 2000s you had very few remote workers, you did have employees and a few hub offices. But for the most part groups of workers were in the same location. So if I look back in the early 2000s. And the large programs that I was with I was managing. I may have had people in London and Tokyo and New York. But at least when I was conducting meetings and conference calls or videoconferencing you still had large amounts of people in each of the locations. So you still had that camaraderie and a personal connection within the office even though you might have been working on a global project when you fast forward to the 2010s. What ends up happening is you suddenly have more remote workers and you have people moving to lower cost locations. So you are starting to expand a bit of where you are. But for the most part, you still have people in centralized locations for that. Now obviously everyone's remote. It's completely decentralized. And what is the future going to bring? So where do we go from here when you start to see where in phase two, phase three, phase four. And I think you're going to see a lot of differences across the country about where you are. I am 13 miles from New York City. And I personally, I'm not ready to get on a railroad train to go to this city just yet. I think a lot of people that are in that same mindset as well, which we'll talk a little bit about as well in a few minutes. So one of the things that I look at is what challenges do you have in the current environment where everyone's remote. And I think the challenges that I say are pretty much four of them going across the top. You have engagement, you have effective communication, you have accountability and then making sure a senior manager, who has a ton of things on their mind how to keep the business afloat, how the employees are doing, but also from the day to day perspective. You want your senior management engaged in the business itself. So what I look at is communication. I don't know about you, but I can't tell you how many times within the past three months when I was on a Zoom call or any other type of video call that someone says, hey, can you keep that question when I become very skeptical about it because what ends up happening is that they probably didn't not just hear you. They might have been doing something else and they might have been surfing the web. They might have been reading an email and they might have been distracted. That happens. And I think when that starts to happen more and more, you're really not quite sure now what you're communicating and what's being heard. So that is the way I look at it is taking a step back. And just like when I'm facilitating a project session, I like to make ground rules and my recommendation here is that when you get on a call is to set some ground rules and say, hey, listen, can we all agree that we're going to be give our undivided attention here that we're going to put our phone to the side, if we do have a second screen at home. I'm going to block that out. So if a news comes up or another email comes up, I don't get distracted and really try to get people's buy-in. On the flip side, the person who is running the meeting needs to be cognizant that people's time is very valuable and you don't have that attention span anymore. So you're going to need to make sure that you have clear, concise objectives to the meeting, you're sending out the agenda ahead of time people know what to expect. And if you can write a run, a tighter meeting and be more direct. I think you'll be more successful in getting people that buy in. So you should focus more on shorter, more impactful meetings and the three hour conference call is much less effective than it might have been previous Yeah. Yes, a three hour meeting is usually a brainstorming session where you're trying to work through some things or through our processes or solutions and type stuff. That means we'll always have to still happen. But I think that you may want to start thinking about breaking them up a little bit at the attention span on these video calls. To me. I'm sensing that people can constrain their attention a little bit. And I'm guilty of it too. I think we're all guilty of it because it's very hard that you're not in the same room as people. And I think that you have to recognize what those limitations are and try to adjust. I always feel like a good manager is almost like a chameleon. They're the ones who are adjusting and trying to help their staff and their colleagues be better. And I think we'll have to kind of think outside the box a little bit about how we communicate with people, how we engage them. And also be accountable. You still need that accountability piece. So how do you handle that? The last thing on this slide that I want to address is the bottom line. Notice I have asked for help when my career first started many years ago asking for help was a sign of weakness. Wait a second. You can't do that. I still think that is fairly prevalent in today's workforce unfortunately. But I think especially in times like this, I think what we need to do is encourage people, if you need help, ask for it. And I tried to tell the people I work with that asking for help is a strength, not a weakness. And it's been. And it's not your capacity to do something. Everyone's really bright and everyone's got their strong points. But if there's something that you need help on. I think we become a better place to work when we are open to suggestions and we're open to asking for help because I think that you get a much more team oriented approach when you're with people and that I think you really need to make sure that you're encouraging that and a lot of these things, you're going to have to lead by example. You can't just say, hey ask for help. You know you show that by asking someone else for help to show people that you're open to that. And I think you'll see people adjusting to that nicely over time. Lead by example. That's that's it. That's it. OK So when we fall back this about the evolution of the workforce. We've kind of talked about this. And I think one of the things about the future is that I think where businesses have to really take a look at is where their business landscape will look like. And where they want it to go is. And I think that there's a lot of flexibility that has got to be there because I think there's going to be a lot of living and learning. And I think it is going to have to pivot and recognize when they open back up. Well this may not have worked that. Well It's no fault of anybody. We're all going to learn. And I think we all have to leverage each other because I think everyone in the organization from top to bottom is going to have ideas about how they can effectively work together and also work towards a common goal, whatever mission you know your company has. So some things that I look at to consider for this is on up on a I've separated really into two different things. Personnel and personnel and then also managing the organization. And I do want to spend a little bit of time on these two topics because I think this gets to the crux of where everybody needs to head to where we have to think about. And the first thing is the mental health and emotional toll of everybody, not just your employees or your staff or management. But you yourself. Because I view this as everyone has been affected by this. The last three or four months in some manner. I think it's very important. And I always elicit back to my favorite book to kill a Mockingbird where Atticus Finch his quote was you never understand a person or two you consider things from their point of view, get into his skin and walk around. So when you're working with people, and maybe they're struggling a little bad or they're not performing as well as they used to or any combination of that as I think you've got to understand that they may be struggling and they may not want to talk about their struggles. But I think as managers and colleagues, we have to understand with people that everyone has stuff that they're dealing with. And I think the culture of an organization has to kind of change a little bit. And I think, Brian, you and I are talking and you alluded to a term around culture. When I was talking. Yeah, I think that the thing that has been that I see is a challenge for a lot of organizations that they have a strong office culture, meaning a lot of camaraderie occurs by the nature of the physical proximity of the people who work in the office. That's a challenging transition for a lot of folks. And that's why you see such huge numbers of certain demographic groups who are earlier in their career who have come to really rely on that sense of connection that comes from working in close proximity. I think that that change is often a struggle. I know for me, it has been in a lot of ways. But I think that on a macro scale that movement from culture proximity to more of organizational and disparity are kind of distributed culture. I think it is a challenge for a lot of folks to kind of find their bearings then Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think it dovetails nicely into the next point where to work. Oh everyone has their own personal story and their issues and you got to turn to some people who say, you know what. I really enjoy working from home. I'm efficient. I like it. It gives me some flexibility that I have for whatever reason. There are people who are enjoying working from home. But be not as productive. I remember 20 years ago, someone came up to me and said, I'd like to work from home. I really had to think about that personality and their work ethic to see if that is fit with everybody. The technology wasn't there, but also you just needed me you also needed someone with a certain discipline. I think that people are becoming more disciplined and they can do that. But it's important for not only the manager to realize they may not be as productive. I think the employees themselves have to really look in the mirror and decide what I do enjoy working from home. But I'm much better and more productive being in the office. You know this is an interesting point. I just want to ask a couple of questions about this one is as we get ready to go back to work, people are going to have different levels of comfort about going into an office. So where you might have departments that used to have been prior to COVID, all located in one floor or even in one set of one set at one area one office. Now there's going to be members of the team who maybe has an at risk relative at home. So they don't feel comfortable and they don't feel comfortable for the foreseeable future. So you'll have kind of mixed work teams where some people would really be deprived of a lot of that. How do you recommend people kind of continue to stay engaged when you have mixed kinds of mixed departments or mixed organizational structures. I think it's going to be almost on a case by case basis. And the dynamics of your group. I think also there's a lot of egos in there in the business world. Thank you. I think you have to recognize and try to talk to your employees about, hey, listen, I know that you feel that coming into the office is the only way you could be productive and such. And such. But we are going to have certain people working from home now. And I have to gradually change the culture of the organization to find it acceptable in any combination. I remember, you know back in the day where you were the perception of working from home was that you're sitting outside that you're only working three hours a day. Yeah, no I think it's I think it's important that we come up with the right metrics in order to measure productivity and stand how people are doing, but more importantly, again, this point about working from home. But not as productive. I think both sides have to understand and recognize they may not be as productive as at home. And how to do that. There might be some people who turn around and say, I have to get out of the house. I am a better person. I'm a better parent, I'm a better significant other. I'm a better son or daughter to me, that's socialization of being in touch with people and being in the office makes me tick. I think you have to work at it. So I think when you're starting to think about returning to the office. I'll allude to that in a little bit. But you really got to know your workforce. What works. It's almost like a coach of a sports team. You have to understand how everyone texts you understand how to incentivize people and how to encourage people and get them on board. I think that's going to be more and more critical as a manager is to really get to know that person and your team and understand what the balance is. And then again, going back to my previous slide is being very communicative, being able to communicate what your decisions are why you made them. People may not be thrilled with them. But they can argue that you're not being upfront with them and telling them why person A B and C are going to be working from home. And others are going to be working in the office, we're a team that's trying to get this stuff together. And again, to your point, Brian, that you mentioned earlier, it's that cultural shift. I think that companies need to address. Yeah Yeah. The other thing that actually Brian and I were both discussing when we were preparing for this is the generation of demographic differences. You know I have a 26-year-old daughter, who lives in Georgia. She's a lawyer and she's being quarantined and she's really struggling because you know that generation is used to being in contact with people and being socializing and being able to get out there. And it's that there's a struggle with someone like me who's a 30 year veteran actually, I really don't mind working from home. I have to retain the discipline that I can get things done. I could still do the things that I want to do, but I think, again, when we're talking about where people work. I think the layer that you have to put over that is what's the gender generation on the demographics of where this is something that, quite frankly, I was really surprised by for years in all of my talks and writing. I had this assumption that because the younger generation was more comfortable technology they would be much more comfortable with things like remote work or alternate work modes. The statistics and the numbers just don't bear that out at all. So this particular element was actually a very surprising outgrowth of a lot of research just gone in the post COVID remote work Movement Generation millennials and Generation Z. They really struggle and the struggle to remain productive in this new mode. Why do you think that is. I think things are cyclical. I view things like I do very quite frankly. Take a look at the clothes. My dad was growing up. My dad had the same clothes my whole tired childhood, but it was one phase of my life. They were in then they were out and they were back in here. I think it's I think our generation, the people, though, who were in the industry of 25 plus years, you know, have been commuting for a long time or going into the office and flying. It is a welcome change to be able to work from home or be home for three days and in the office two days. But I think the cyclicality of it with the younger generation is starting to think that what I like being in the office. I like being active, you know. And I think social media is playing a big role in that because it has also gotten a lot smaller. There's a couple of different things that are about that and to tell you the truth, I probably can't put my finger on one specific reason. But I do. I am a big believer that there are things that are cyclical you know they come around again. Yeah understood. Yeah how do you separate work from home. This to me, this is very, very critical about how you set boundaries. Like I stated before as is that before you know you're in the office you have to get home, whether it took you 15 minutes a half hour, an hour and a half you had that downtime to really take the air out of the balloon if you will. And exhaust the day. And then come home. Now people are working at card tables, kitchen tables, dining room tables in their bedrooms. How do you separate. How do you say, you know what. I'm done for the day I'm going to close my computer. And I am not going to log back on. And it doesn't have to be at 9 o'clock at night. It could be a 5 o'clock of the and this is where I think management really, really needs to lead by example because the examples that I've had of my career where I'd get these emails at 8 and 9 o'clock at night I'd answer them reluctantly and again, once you answer an email if what you consider after hours you are telling the person that you're ready, get into the conversation. So Yeah or you address it. Be prepared. But I think from this is, if I'm a manager and I've got you've got to encourage people listen, you day's over. But when you tell your staff that the days are over. Don't email him an hour later. Don't email him. Two hours later you recognize the fact that you're going to do that. And actually when I say lead by example, pick a couple of days at 4 o'clock and tell your staff that I'm out for the rest of the day, you show that it's OK to do it because you could if you say it's OK then don't behave differently. That's the signal that your employees are going to get. They're going to get the behavior, not your words. So I think it's very vague. But also, we need to do as well as all our employees if we have to own ourselves. We have to say, I'm going to go for a walk at 3 o'clock. I'm going to go walk the dog. And go for a run. I'm going to do whatever it is to make my working from home more palatable and give me more balance and that balance is achieved in many, many different ways. And it's very, very personal. So people have to do that. But I think the key there is that management has to give people the ability to set the boundaries and you lead by example, by setting your own boundaries and making sure that your staff is seeing what your boundaries are and how to manage your staff. How do you do that, when you don't see them. You don't you know I look back at my days in the office. And it's all those little drive bys that you have the eye bump into someone getting a cup of coffee. I walked by the desk all those little things and I'll put that in the same categories. How do you maintain the human connection. Little two and 3 minute conversations if you take 10 days in a row to a 3 minute conversation with the same person. You can look back and how well you've got to know that person just in those two, three minutes every day. And once you get to know that person on a personal level your relationship changes your professional relationship because you have more of an understanding and you're not. I'm not saying you have to pour out all your personal things. It's just that human connection. What things you have in common. You know what may be going on that you'd like to share. But those little tidbits and snippets of conversations that you have are really hard to do in this environment. You want to schedule is Brian, that we can just have a little quick 2 minute conversation. And I would do it doesn't happen. It's not natural. It may happen at the end of the conversation. They are in a pickle. But everything seems to be more schedule. It's sort of like you know with those who have kids as you know, it's the standard play date. When I was growing up, there was no play dates. You got shoved out of the house you started the kids in the neigHBOrhood to play. Yeah I'm here. Everything needs to be scheduled. Managing your staff maintain the human connection. And then stay in close to your staff are very, very challenging. And we will have to think of ways to maintain that connection. I just had the client that I'm at right now. We just had a virtual cocktail hour one night last week, and we all grab the drink and we all know a lot of us sat outside. But we just chatted for about an hour and got to know each other a little bit. Did it feel a little staged. A little bit, but it's same time, same thing as if you go out for a drink after work, you know that it's that new way of doing things. But I think we all have to excuse me make a concerted effort and maybe a little bit harder. But the effort has to be there. And then lastly, I guess Brian, you know, it's just about all the things that you mentioned may seem staged but it's about the intention behind it. You know a lot of when we would do update meetings with staff people would want to talk about activities, but then they want to make sure that they also have some connection time as well. So like we would have one, two calls in a week and one call might be specifically dedicated to goals and objectives. The next call might be more about issues and just kind of general catch up and relating it. I believe it just has to be done with intention and authenticity. Yeah, and that's a great word authenticity. It has to be authentic. It's if you come across not being authentic. People are going to see right through it. Yeah, it's got to be like tissue paper. They're not going to sit there go on. Like you've got to be kidding me. Yeah, absolutely. And then the last thing on the slide is you still have people who want to get promoted who want to get paid raises who want to climb the ladder is how do we make sure that we're getting exposure to senior management you know most exposure is usually in these steering committee meetings or any other meeting that the senior folk is in now a senior management is tied up a lot more not in as many meetings. They could have other things to deal with, but how are you, as the employee and you as the manager going to ensure that yourself and your staff are getting that exposure because you still as a manager have that person's career kind of in your hand helping them along. So you need to make sure that that exposure to senior management is done differently. So let's go to the next slide now from managing an organization standpoint. I kind of flipped this on the side a little bit. Now let's talk about the success of an organization. The first thing is how efficient I was as an organization during the pandemic. Can I measure it if I am 85% as efficient. Can I get rid of my real estate. Do I need as much space as I need to anymore. Will the real estate cost the offset by the less efficient that I may be. I don't know the answers to that. But those are questions. I think people should be asking themselves around their organization and efficiency is not just how many widgets I've made or what my earnings are. The efficiency is how efficient. My employees are being. Can they still do their job properly or are they working remotely and their PC is crashing three times a day. And they keep rebooting. That has to do with efficiency as much as what the bottom line looks like. So many different levels around there. How do you measure efficiency relative to productivity. There are two kind of different things like I think when you think about efficiency or in this example, are you kind of using them interchangeably. I think I'm using them interchangeably because of the third bullet I have there. It also depends on your industry that you're in. You know I know that from. From my experience of financial services. It's hard to measure because there's still getting things done. So the question is, are people still working 12, 13 hour days to get that stuff done or are we managing the workload or is everyone still having to work. Now even harder. And I think the issue that I have with some management is as they turn around and say, well, we've got it. We got away with fewer people. So let's keep going. You realize that that's not sustainable. You've got to burn people out. And I truly believe that after everyone's gone through this pandemic, they're going to be less likely to put up with the 12, 13, 14 hour days because working from home you know I'm not getting that at all. So it's how you do it again. How do you. What's that trade off for that. We also know what the optimal business model looks like. Is everything above that. You know the industry impacts the trade off, the efficiency. But also, again, the personal stuff knowing your employees. How are they, how are they doing. How are they effective. How they are efficient, and that's going to be something that I truly believe in business. What they need to do is decide on how they want to move forward that they have the ability to pivot. First, I think the first model that you put together. Did not work as well as you think it does. And you have to be able to adjust. But in terms of hiring practices think about this one. I'm put on a New York based company where everyone's working remotely. I need to find a good candidate and that candidate the best candidate happens to be in Chicago. I don't have to relocate the person from Chicago anymore. Do I know I can have the person stay in Chicago? In fact, a client that I'm not right now as I was just on a conference call with I think there were six people on the call in six states were represented. I mean, that's just a new way. So you know you're not limited. Now to where you're located. Defining a good job. The New York jobs could be found in Arizona. Yeah you know, Portland. I mean, you have time differences but that's something that you can work around. So I think from the hiring practices. I think you'll see how to change that. And then from another organizational thing that we need to do is, how do I attract and retain talent. And I think this could be a game changer. I think the companies that kind of get ahead of this in creative and get their input from their employees will find that they're retaining their talent and in words to get around and they're going to attract the talent. So I think that there's a very good opportunity here for companies to really take a step back and try to figure out what that business model looks like and how they're going to treat their employees and work with their employees that there's a really good ability here that attracting and retaining talent is could be a difference maker for a lot a lot of companies. With that said, you also have to figure out the evaluation of staff and promotions. Does it change. I'm not seeing everybody every day. I have a different perception of how they're doing it. How am I going to get three 360 degree evaluations done now because people may not be coming across as many people as they used to. And things like that. So I think that has to be considered. You have to rely more on independent talent. I know that I want a more fungible workplace. Is it good to bring people in and out. You know, for, let's say, for especially projects that I could keep my staff costs a little bit lower in order to rely more on independent talent. We certainly feel that way. Good MBO that's kind of the premise sir that we have is that we believe that the next way of working will include a reliance on a more distributed source of Townsend and oftentimes a lot of the people who are the highest in demand work independently. So we do definitely feel that way. Yep Yeah. And I do too. And that's why I became an independent late last year. All my employees are busy or effective. How do I know how busy I am? They really are and how effective they are. They're all working remotely. You know my giving person too much work and person B not enough work. But how do I measure how long they're taking it when I'm in the office. You could kind of say so there's to me here is there's a really big trust factor that you need to have with your employees to say you want to encourage people, if there's someone who's not doesn't have their day filled with work they should encourage them to speak up. There's somebody in the organization that is still under the pressure of working the 12 hour days because they don't want to ask for help. So again, it's opening up that communication and trying to figure out that balance about how your employees are working. That's actually really hard for a lot of people to do is to feel that they raise their hand and say, I have additional bandwidth they imagine now more than ever, it seems more important to do. It's certainly harder for a lot of folks to do that. Well because some people feel exposed. Yeah well, if you have excess capacity maybe we don't really need you. And I've got to cut costs. There's a guarantee. And again, to your point, Brian earlier. That's where that whole culture change has to come in with the organization. Yes companies still have to deliver bad news and they have to cut costs. And there still will be layoffs. You know we can't kid ourselves that everything is Apple pie and you know as my daughters used to say rainbows and unicorns it's not that way. I think it's going to be there's still going to be hard decisions to make and things like that. But again, I think companies can get to that cultural change. I think we may be onto something because really take a look at the 9 to 5 job. Where does that go? You know you're asking me to put in 8 or nine hours a day and can I do it whenever I want to. You know because you know you're working remotely now you don't really know when I'm doing it. And should you care. Yeah you know I'm you know what. I'm going to work. I'm going to start at 7:00 and then at 3:00 today. You know I've got some family stuff I want to do. I got other things that I need to do or that's just how I operate. I operate a little bit better than I'm going to do other things during the day. But I'm still going to be able to get my work done. And then lastly, how do you manage your second vacation time. I'm a very big advocate and my whole career, I've had my staff when they go on vacation. I tell them. I do not want them answering any emails or any phone calls. It'll still be here when you come back, you know. So the question is, and Brian, you and I were talking about this, another doctor between 1 and 3. You really need to tell everybody now anymore. Well they're going to get my work done, but I have a doctor's appointment to take an elderly parent to the doctor as a kid, I take myself out to take my seat with another whatever it is. It's again that cultural shift of trust in the employee about getting their job done. And you are able to measure whether or not they're getting the job done effectively. Yes so that that brings up a good question. You know I have one of the people who I approve time for wanted to take some time off recently to take a couple of hours to go to the doctor's visit and given the fact that I know his work schedule incorporates him working 10 to 15 hours a day. I just felt disingenuous accepting that. How do you feel about managing a team that really doesn't believe that it's OK to do that. What are some of the things that you can do to kind of build that organizational trust. Do you mean, what you say you lead by example. Do you take a doctor's appointment at 1 o'clock until you tell your staff that I'm going to be out of pocket from between 1 and 3 because I have a doctor's appointment. Mm-hmm You know, it's funny that a quick story is that when I was I think I was working at Morgan Stanley at the time. So again, when my kids were little, I used to coach. All their life baseball, and hockey and soccer teams and everything. And the games were at 6 o'clock. And I worked in the city. And I had an hour commute. I remember someone coming up to me saying no can't how do you go in coach. It is usually about 4:30 I put my coat on. And I live and in person poison goes well, how do you do that. I take my coat. And I put it on. And I think I put my right sleeve in first and then my left sleeve. And I was being deliberate, like that for a reason because I wanted them to understand that I was going to do it because it was important to me. And you know it's not to say that I told them, I said Hi between 6 and 8. I get to be on the field with the kids. Does that mean that at 8 o'clock, I don't maybe log back on or do some more. I do. But it was more important for me to be at the field between 6 and 8 to do that. So I left there. And I and I love what I left with that was as if I don't climb the corporate ladder and someone gets promoted over me because I did this. I didn't do that. I am more than fine with it. They don't lie to me that maybe I'm not in the right organization because everything in life is a choice to do that. And I told the person when they said, I can't do that. I said, of course, you can. You just have to decide that that's a priority and that's a choice. And it doesn't allow you to do that. You can have a choice to change jobs, you may not be easy and you can't may not be able to do it now, but you can do it. I think that management needs to understand that, especially with everything that's going on. I think the dynamic may change. And we could go right back to where we were. But I think that people are going to start appreciating some of the things they can do now. And I think businesses need to adjust. So if I go to my I think this is my last slide. So this is my list of things we can do to be successful and it could be from an organizational standpoint and it could be from a personal standpoint. And I think when you look at a lot of these things these always apply. I just think it's more important now than ever. But I get all these. We should be practicing these no matter what's going on. The first is to show empathy. Yeah, I remember I had someone on my staff who was having a rough time at home. I turned to them and said, you know what. For the next four weeks. I want you to work from home for three days a week. I can't do that. I said this. You can't because I just told you. I want you to and the person did. But I have to tell you I was able to show empathy. I was able to help them out. And you know what. The next time we were in crunch time. I had someone in my corner heartbeat. You, we help each other out. So we met. So six months later, we had to get a lot of things done. And they were there for me to get things done. Because you're showing empathy and you're understanding that there's more to work more to life than the work. I talk about maintaining the human connection. How do you find those connections? Make sure that you are connecting with people in some way within the workforce on some personal type level or just working through having that camaraderie that you get to back each other up and you can build that trust. Yeah being an active listener. I learned from my father. If you have anyone wants to take a walk with my dad you can walk in that neigHBOrhood. He can tell you a little bit about every house in the neigHBOrhood that you love to listen to people he just loved. He would walk by and see that guy. You believe that if you're an active listener you're engaged. But more importantly, the person that you're talking to feels that they're being heard. The important thing is that they're being heard. When you're in person, you can lean forward a little bit when you're sitting at a table, you know and Zoom it's a little more difficult, but you can show signs of being active listening on video recordings. And that's what you need. I think you need to do. We talked about asking for help already about not needing you needing it. Not a sign of weakness. Don't limit your hiring practices to a specific location. You mentioned that I understand how and where your employees are most effective. We talked a little bit about that around just being that good coach and understanding what buttons to push with people and how they're most effective. Be clear with your team on how to separate work from home life lead by example, there. Make sure that you can talk to you're blue in the face about it until they see you doing it. They're going to be afraid to do it. Be transparent. Be transparent, consistent how you communicate. That has to be always people who are left in the dark start to feel a little bit uneasy. Have you heard from them. I haven't heard any communications. And you know what. Continue to make sure you get people Pat on the back for a job well done. Yeah, that could get lost in working remote. Also you know because I think you run into an issue where it doesn't cost anything. It makes people feel great. And if people do not get on it. I'm the same way. But earlier in my career if I went, like, two or three months without finding out how I was doing. And I didn't get that Pat on the back or get some good critical. You know constructive feedback. I just felt that they were disinterested and maybe I was on my way out and you don't want people to start thinking about where maybe I am on my way out. I haven't really heard from anybody. They're not communicating with me. They're not being transparent. I just heard that there was an organizational change over here. How come I didn't find out about it. All those types of things. I think you've got to be transparent and consistent. You still have to hold people accountable though you still got to be a boss. You still have to get things done. So I think a lot of things that we've talked about go a long way. But at the end of the day, you still have to make clear what each person's objectives are and what they have to get done. You still have to hold them to it. Because if you still have that you have people who are not getting the job done, you'd still have to make a change. Yeah but you still see a need to really hold them accountable. And then the last one as an ethics professor just it's too easy and not enough people do a picture to show people respect and dignity. Yeah just be nice. You know what. We all get stressed out at work. And we all have bad days. And in fact, if you showed me, someone who didn't they never had a bad day. I think there would be something wrong with that. I mean psychopaths, maybe a psychopath that's for sure. Everybody has a bad day via but it's this continuing to show that respect. And the dignity of that person. And I think if you between showing empathy and showing respect and dignity and you do all the things in between there. I think for me, this is the type of stuff that's made me successful. And I think it's where we need to get to. In whatever environment we end up at. So with that, I would love to hear who was on the call. What your list looks like. I put my email address on the bottom. I would love to hear from anybody I'd love to. I love having conversations with people about this type of stuff. And if there's something that is here. That's not here that you feel should be here. I would love to hear about it, because I'd love to include it. I'd love to put it into practice of what I do. I don't have all the answers. I far. And there're a lot of people in this house that I'm living in right now will tell me that. But I think there's a lot of other things that could be thought of that either I decide to not include here or just plain we didn't think about it. So there's my website. If anyone has any questions or wants to reach out. I would be happy to talk to anybody about anything that they're doing and the assistance that they need or just plain talking about this topic because I really enjoy talking about it. Yeah thank you, Ken and I really do encourage everyone to reach out to that email and also reach out to Ken and LinkedIn and hopefully get connected. I think we have time for one question. And that is in relation to hiring. How do you propose we go about bringing new people on board considering there's going to be very likely we'll be hiring a great number of people without ever being in the same room with them. You know a lot of the human connection went on one sort of perspective. How do you kind of encourage organizations to do that effectively. Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's taking a look at how you interview number one. And quite frankly, the interview on a Zoom could be a justice effect or Webex could be just as effective as being in person. You know I think it's I think it's still important that you visually have to see the person you interview as you're trying to make a decision hiring someone in a 30 minute conversation. And then maybe there's a couple of other 30 minute conversations to confirm what you have heard, maybe this three or four other people. So the whole hiring practice as a whole is sort of a little bit of a gamble to begin with. Yes that's for sure. You know I've got four people for three 30 minute interviews, we're going to make a decision on hiring this month. So it's hard. It's hard. And is it more difficult in this environment. Yes because you're not physically needing them. I mean, the clients that I'm working with right now. I never physically met. We just talked on the phone and they brought me in. You know. So I think there's still a way. I also think it depends on the level of the person. It's much easier if you're bringing in a more junior person you know to me when I'm interviewing a junior person I want to know they're going to work hard they're a good person other than that, they could learn anything would start when you start going to the middle management and senior management you really want to kind of make sure they have that experience that they say they have the executive presence. And the ability to lead is often an intangible that's hard to identify virtually totally. Oh absolutely absolutely. Well thank you. Kind thank you to everybody who attended. If you want to join us for this event, you can record the recording and also future events. We have a great event scheduled tomorrow with Miles Everson, our CEO, talking about rebuilding the agile workforce. We certainly hope you'll join us there. You can learn more about MBO partners at our website and hopefully identify some additional ventures I'd like to attend. Here's my personal contact information. I certainly would love to hear from each and every one of you. And we will see you all hopefully tomorrow. Thanks so much Kenneth. And thank you, everybody. Thank you, everybody.